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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:23 pm 
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How would I get the AI to pass on the outside line?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:22 pm 
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For an oval? I'll assume so.
I don't work on ovals, but knowing what I know, this is what I'd try.
Push the maxrace.lp (assuming a CCW oval) close to the race.lp. Put the minrace.lp at least 1-1/2 - 2 car widths from the race.lp. Give the ai_squeeze_pcnt a value of 0.1 - 1.0. The higher the ai_squeeze_pcnt value, the greater chance the ai will vary from the race.lp. You can use any value for the ai_squeeze_pcnt, but when it's too high the ai will run into things or drive off the track for no reason.
You might want to make a race.lp that runs closer to the inside than what you would normally consider appropiate.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:51 am 
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Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately I don't have any controllers anymore because the last one I had broke, so I can't make the LP files, however, I can edit the INI files, so I will try that. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:31 am 
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Well, even without being able to edit the AI line, I was able to get partially what I wanted. But not the AI speeds during the pace laps are erratic. Should I increase the pacing distance between the cars?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:59 pm 
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Back in the day I made North Wilkesboro 1970 from scratch with Sandbox. Layout, track surface, grooves, etc. The elevation change was challenging. And if I remember Denis Rioux made the stands and some other 3do's. SteveB (I think helped with the pit LP files). You will find the track on the Pits downloads.

Anyway I spent a ton of development time on multi groves and the track ini file, along with a car set strength settings. The result was the AI would pass you on the outside, or run with you door to door for as many laps as you could endure. It was as close to real short track racing as you could get.

So from that, I will tell you this. What your looking for is a precise combination of AI, INI, multi groove grip, car set strengths, and LP files. If you don't have a wheel to do LP's your SOL.

You can discount what I've said, but I know Steve will back me up. If your off on any of those file adjustments you'll end up with nothing that works well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Quote:
Wrangler
So from that, I will tell you this. What your looking for is a precise combination of AI, INI, multi groove grip, car set strengths, and LP files.


I totally agree.
In fact, except for the multi-groove grip, this is what's needed for competent, racey ai at any track.
People are always looking for the magic, one-size-fits-all track.ini fix. That's just not the way NR2003 works, all the variables are inter-active and inter-dependent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:58 am 
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fortine_oo wrote:
Quote:
Wrangler
So from that, I will tell you this. What your looking for is a precise combination of AI, INI, multi groove grip, car set strengths, and LP files.


I totally agree.
In fact, except for the multi-groove grip, this is what's needed for competent, racey ai at any track.
People are always looking for the magic, one-size-fits-all track.ini fix. That's just not the way NR2003 works, all the variables are inter-active and inter-dependent.


Exactly! And you can't take an ini file and move it's settings to another track, (as you mentioned) and achieve the same result. Each combination is track specific.

When I made Daytona 1970 it was another trial and error session to finally get the AI and the USER to be able to pass in the upper lanes. In testing I ran 30+ laps 3-4 wide. Intense but fun. Again it was Denis who made the stands and pit 3do's for that one as well.

PS slightly increasing the grip in the upper grooves is what gives the AI and the USER the ability to make those outside passes and or stay even with the inside pack. If you remember the original Papy Daytona, it was normal to lose positions unless you drove the lower groove.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:29 am 
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I only have the original tracks, but I've been tweaking the INI files slightly to help get the AI more competitive.

I just got the Saitek X52 so I'll be able to make the LP files now. It's probably not as precise as a steering wheel, but I have enough control over the car to be safe and competitive.

How exactly does this multi-groove work? Papyrus materials are hard-coded and you can't make different portions of a track have different grip levels unless you have those portions as different materials. Do you make the high line something like concrete and just keep the asphalt texture?

I'll take a look at those tracks you mentioned and maybe you could teach me how to get realistic elevation at the tracks that I build. The real ones, not the fictional ones.

EDIT:
Downloading two of the tracks. The "lite" versions.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:34 am 
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TCR_500 wrote:
I only have the original tracks, but I've been tweaking the INI files slightly to help get the AI more competitive.

I just got the Saitek X52 so I'll be able to make the LP files now. It's probably not as precise as a steering wheel, but I have enough control over the car to be safe and competitive.

How exactly does this multi-groove work? Papyrus materials are hard-coded and you can't make different portions of a track have different grip levels unless you have those portions as different materials. Do you make the high line something like concrete and just keep the asphalt texture?

I'll take a look at those tracks you mentioned and maybe you could teach me how to get realistic elevation at the tracks that I build. The real ones, not the fictional ones.

EDIT:
Downloading two of the tracks. The "lite" versions.


Most of the multigroove tracks I've seen have paint, concrete and asphalt in the turns with the grip rising as you move outwards, so the low line has the lowest, high line the highest and middle in the middle.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:34 pm 
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ZiggyM wrote:
TCR_500 wrote:
I only have the original tracks, but I've been tweaking the INI files slightly to help get the AI more competitive.

I just got the Saitek X52 so I'll be able to make the LP files now. It's probably not as precise as a steering wheel, but I have enough control over the car to be safe and competitive.

How exactly does this multi-groove work? Papyrus materials are hard-coded and you can't make different portions of a track have different grip levels unless you have those portions as different materials. Do you make the high line something like concrete and just keep the asphalt texture?

I'll take a look at those tracks you mentioned and maybe you could teach me how to get realistic elevation at the tracks that I build. The real ones, not the fictional ones.

EDIT:
Downloading two of the tracks. The "lite" versions.


Most of the multigroove tracks I've seen have paint, concrete and asphalt in the turns with the grip rising as you move outwards, so the low line has the lowest, high line the highest and middle in the middle.



I didn't want to start a new thread cause i found this one, my question is this: you said most of the multigroove tracks have paint, concrete, and asphalt. whats the paint mean? like whats it do? Ive seen it in some of the ini but I never knew what it does.

also if you edit the lp lines (using the tool that's built in the game) does the amount of speed you have in the turns and straightaways affect anything? will it effect the ai's speed? say I was at Michigan and in the turns i had a speed around 175mph. does that mean the ai would run the same speed as me?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 am 
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Colton wrote:
ZiggyM wrote:
TCR_500 wrote:
I only have the original tracks, but I've been tweaking the INI files slightly to help get the AI more competitive.

I just got the Saitek X52 so I'll be able to make the LP files now. It's probably not as precise as a steering wheel, but I have enough control over the car to be safe and competitive.

How exactly does this multi-groove work? Papyrus materials are hard-coded and you can't make different portions of a track have different grip levels unless you have those portions as different materials. Do you make the high line something like concrete and just keep the asphalt texture?

I'll take a look at those tracks you mentioned and maybe you could teach me how to get realistic elevation at the tracks that I build. The real ones, not the fictional ones.

EDIT:
Downloading two of the tracks. The "lite" versions.


Most of the multigroove tracks I've seen have paint, concrete and asphalt in the turns with the grip rising as you move outwards, so the low line has the lowest, high line the highest and middle in the middle.



I didn't want to start a new thread cause i found this one, my question is this: you said most of the multigroove tracks have paint, concrete, and asphalt. whats the paint mean? like whats it do? Ive seen it in some of the ini but I never knew what it does.

also if you edit the lp lines (using the tool that's built in the game) does the amount of speed you have in the turns and straightaways affect anything? will it effect the ai's speed? say I was at Michigan and in the turns i had a speed around 175mph. does that mean the ai would run the same speed as me?


Colton

Paint, concrete, and asphalt are surface textures that have their own coefficient of friction properties.
Asphalt and concrete are pretty close, with concrete being slightly grippier. Paint is different, it will retain some slipperines even at high grip values.

I did a lot of work on two versions of Long Beach 2010.
One was a regular grip version (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=4786) and the other was a high grip version for OWR (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=5841) on which I used paint for the majority of surfaces.

There's also a discussion on grip settings: http://nrtracks.com/nrtracks_board/index.php?topic=154.0

Re: lp's
Only the race.lp interprets the speed, steering input, throttle response, and braking applied that was used while recording the lap in reflap. The rest of the lp's only record the path, you can drive as fast or slow as you like, it doesn't matter.

"...i had a speed around 175mph. does that mean the ai would run the same speed as me?"
No.
The race.lp tells the exe where the ai racing line is, and where the turning, accelerating, and braking points are.
Using the same track.ini, a different race.lp at the same track will yield different results.
The secondary lp's, minrace/panic and maxrace/panic also affect overall ai ability and raceability.
The track.ini tweaks the race.lp values so the player's ability can match the ai. These parameters are interactive with the race.lp and with other track.ini values. To what degree that change affects the way the ai run depends on how big a change was made to a specific value, and how much importance that value carries as it relates to the race.lp and exe.
The ai ratings influence how well the ai are able to take advantage of the lp's, track.ini and setup.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:24 am 
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Colton

Paint, concrete, and asphalt are surface textures that have their own coefficient of friction properties.
Asphalt and concrete are pretty close, with concrete being slightly grippier. Paint is different, it will retain some slipperines even at high grip values.

I did a lot of work on two versions of Long Beach 2010.
One was a regular grip version (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=4786) and the other was a high grip version for OWR (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=5841) on which I used paint for the majority of surfaces.

There's also a discussion on grip settings: http://nrtracks.com/nrtracks_board/index.php?topic=154.0

Re: lp's
Only the race.lp interprets the speed, steering input, throttle response, and braking applied that was used while recording the lap in reflap. The rest of the lp's only record the path, you can drive as fast or slow as you like, it doesn't matter.

"...i had a speed around 175mph. does that mean the ai would run the same speed as me?"
No.
The race.lp tells the exe where the ai racing line is, and where the turning, accelerating, and braking points are.
Using the same track.ini, a different race.lp at the same track will yield different results.
The secondary lp's, minrace/panic and maxrace/panic also affect overall ai ability and raceability.
The track.ini tweaks the race.lp values so the player's ability can match the ai. These parameters are interactive with the race.lp and with other track.ini values. To what degree that change affects the way the ai run depends on how big a change was made to a specific value, and how much importance that value carries as it relates to the race.lp and exe.
The ai ratings influence how well the ai are able to take advantage of the lp's, track.ini and setup.[/quote]



Thank you so much for all of that info! :) that really helped alot and explained alot, i tried reflap acouple times years ago and it didnt turn out good at all, except for talladega and daytona. 2 more questions tho.

1: what exactly is the paint grip? is that the paint on the walls?
2: can lp lines touch eachother or pass thru eachother? would that mess the ai up?

again thanks for starting this thread and everyone posting in it, ive been testing ini values for years and im finnally starting to make my own ini files to get much better realistic and great racing out of the ai cars. now time to conquer reflap :cheers:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:37 am 
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Paint is a type of surface that the car drives on, not the walls.

For LP lines, it's a little bit more complex.

Xpanic lines are recommended to never pass through Xrace lines.
XpitY lines cannot pass through other Xpit lines with the same Y value.
XpitY lines may pass through other Xpit lines with a different Y value.
Xrace lines cannot pass through each other.
Xrace and XpitY lines may pass through each other.
limp line can pass through any other line but is recommended to stay on the apron, or on road courses, the side of the track that has pit road.
pace line can pass through any other line but is recommended to go into pit road for best results.

Remember, the minX lines are on the right, the maxX lines are on the left.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:48 pm 
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TCR_500 wrote:
Paint is a type of surface that the car drives on, not the walls.

For LP lines, it's a little bit more complex.

Xpanic lines are recommended to never pass through Xrace lines.
XpitY lines cannot pass through other Xpit lines with the same Y value.
XpitY lines may pass through other Xpit lines with a different Y value.
Xrace lines cannot pass through each other.
Xrace and XpitY lines may pass through each other.
limp line can pass through any other line but is recommended to stay on the apron, or on road courses, the side of the track that has pit road.
pace line can pass through any other line but is recommended to go into pit road for best results.

Remember, the minX lines are on the right, the maxX lines are on the left.



thank you! :)
i think im going to pick a track and mess around with the paint grip to see what that can do, and i think ill try editing the lp lines on the same track. thanks again

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Colton wrote:

Thank you so much for all of that info! :) that really helped alot and explained alot, i tried reflap acouple times years ago and it didnt turn out good at all, except for talladega and daytona. 2 more questions tho.

1: what exactly is the paint grip? is that the paint on the walls?
2: can lp lines touch eachother or pass thru eachother? would that mess the ai up?

again thanks for starting this thread and everyone posting in it, ive been testing ini values for years and im finnally starting to make my own ini files to get much better realistic and great racing out of the ai cars. now time to conquer reflap :cheers:



Colton

Re: #2
There are no hard and fast rules for the placement of lp's, especially for secondary lp's, track and track.ini variables have an affect. Guidelines for lp placement would be more precise.
The ai will follow the race.lp (+/-) regardless of what the secondary lp's are doing or where they're located. (There are specific track scenarios when this isn't 100% true, but that's not important here.) The min/max lp's define alternatitive (lateral) path limits, minrace/maxrace for racing (that allow/assist ai passing), minpanic/maxpanic for avoidance, minpit0/maxpit0 for pitting (that allow/assist ai passing/avoidance).
The minrace/maxrace lp's can touch or even cross the race.lp, there won't be any catastrophic results. However, the ai race best when these two lp's are located to define (and restrict) the ai's path to bonafide alternate racing lines to the race.lp (the preferred racing line). If there's incidental contact or crossover between the minrace.lp and race.lp or the maxrace.lp and race.lp, that's okay.

More info:
http://nrtracks.com/nrtracks_board/inde ... opic=225.0
post #3: I can't make lp's


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