I remember the time about 2 years ago when I saved enough pennies to go to skip barber racing school. I felt like the only one there who wasn't a millionare. Anyway, I had a lot of fun and it was worth the $$$ (for me). But I don't think I learned anything. Everything was common sense. There wasn't one big secret I could learn to improve my video game performance. Maybe it would of been a newsflash for someone who never touched a video game in their life, but not me.

I also want to add that I believe sim racing and real racing are the same thing and I'll go to the grave with that thought rotting in my head. Yeah, there are differences, but they're the same #$%& thing. Gas brake steer, gas brake steer, etc.

After that, I started doing go karting.
http://www.endurancekarting.com/

Now go karting I can say was more different than sim racing than real driving. With the go karts, its all about momentum. I found endurance karting at Lime Rock's wide autocross track to be the PERFECT way to learn racing. The karts are all equal (like IROC), the way racing oughta be. The track required no braking except for 1 turn. This breaks racing down to its finest ingredients that are unmasked from the performance of the cars, braking, downshifting, etc. When someone blows by you, you can't just say "ehh, he has a faster go kart". You know its not where he brakes or shifts. Your performance racing relies solely on your racing line, where you lift, and maintaining momentum. If the karts weren't equal, and/or there was a lot of braking and/or shifting involved, there would be too many variables to pinpoint exactly where you are losing time. How could you possibly learn like that?

So yeah, although SB was a lot of fun (and money), I didn't learn much from it. I did learn a lot, however, from go karting with equal cars on a wide track. And I do believe that the go karting has made me at least a little better at sim racing.

Now, does anyone else have experience with any racing/driving schools? If so, do you feel you really learned anything? I'd like to hear all about it.

I've done 4 Petty classes and learned something each time out. Had a blast as well.

What you describe is not racing...its driving. The two are very different animals. Driving is, indeed, all about the one person - their ability, skill, reflexes/reactions, etc. But that's not racing - its only one component of racing.

Racing is, shall we say, more gestalt. The whole package. Driver, equipment, crew, and (perhaps most importantly) the ability to commmunicate and make good strategic decisions. Racers - good racers - know its not all about them. In many years of high-level stock car racing, I've seen a lot of really good drivers who were crappy racers. Had good equipment, but could never maximize it because they couldn't tell anybody accurately how to improve it, and couldn't do so themselves. Its not enough that you can drive well - you have to be able to articulate what you need in a car in order to maximize its potential to our particular abilities and comfort levels, or be able to do it yourself (not likely in today's world). Then, you have to be able to strategize properly to make sure you (a) get to the end, (b) get to the end with a chance to win it, and (c) take advantage of that chance and actually win it. Racing is a thinking man's game just as much as it is a game of skill and ability.

Racing schools? None for me, unless you count time spent on top of a war wagon, in the engine/chassis/fabrication shop, on pit road. But I did help maintain a car used in one such endeavor for a short time, if that adds any validity. Sim racing and real racing? Some similarities, but worlds apart IMHE.

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If at first you don't succeed, call it "The Car of Tomorrow" - Larry van Zandt

wow, G-kar whipping out the vocabulary: "gestalt".

I agree with your points, Greg. I learned a few things about race cars, a few things about chasing another student's car, but more about driving than anything else.

I also dont see how much of anything we do at a keyboard correlates with any thing real racers do on a track trying to win so they can feed their families or pay the monthly lease rate on their private jet. Further, we have an escape button whereas they dont and might actually get maimed or die in a wreck.

LOL - had to SOMETHING with that German class I took in college. Otherwise, like Bro Bluto: "Seven years of college down the drain! Might as well join the...Peace Corp."

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If at first you don't succeed, call it "The Car of Tomorrow" - Larry van Zandt

I agree with 40% of that (lol). Then I guess Skip Barber is really a "driving school" according to you, because they sure as heck didn't teach anything about making setups and strategy. Regardless of what you call it, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know in regards to using my hands and feet to make a car (in game and reality) go faster at Skip Barber. My go kart experience was much more helpful. I'm not knocking the school saying they weren't good. Its just that I think there wasn't much to teach someone whos been playing racing video games for years.

Which program and session did you do there?

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http://nsrs.jawcentral.com/forum 3d Max and rFactor Tutorials

Why exactly would a driving school tell anyone anything about setups and strategy?

Wouldn't it be better to go to a crew chief or mechanic school for that type of thing, since that is what they are for.... not the driver?

What an egghead.

And NSRSFreew67,

I doubt he took anything in regards to Skip Barber. He probably played around with the iRacing car, looked up Skip Barber on the internet, and is now looking for attention over here since he's probably been banned from all the other places he looked for attention at. Heck, I bet his go kart experience involves his backyard.

Some tools are better than other tools, but the fact remains.... they are still tools.

I've never actually raced real cars, just been on the track with other cars on track days, and personally I found my sim racing experience to be of great help, initially. It can teach you a lot of the basics, like finding the correct line through a corner and situational awareness, however there's a ton of stuff you can not learn from racing on a 2D computer screen. I'd say computer racing is a bit like learning about racing in a class room, you learn the basic theory and how it's supposed to work, which is a good start, but from there on it's a very different ball game.

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Stop oppressive gardening

"De gustibus non est disputandum."

Toolman........ will this work

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steve b
NR2k3TRACKS

LOL... yeah. But you may find a better selection here:

http://www.hiarchive.co.uk/index.php?content=binford

Well put.

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If at first you don't succeed, call it "The Car of Tomorrow" - Larry van Zandt

I'm with Goy on this one. My real world experience has been purely autocross/gymkhana, so none of the tricks of dealing with other people on the track come into play. However, there were some things I gained from the simulations and a lot of things I didn't gain. For one, there's a huge difference in how your body acts/reacts when setting in a stationary chair versus being in the car and getting pushed and pulled in all sorts of directions. For another, the tactile feel you need to be really fast can't be learned from a sim (even with force feedback). The gas, the brake, the steering, the shifter/clutch if it's a manual, all act differently in real cars (and from car to car). No simulator can ever give you the same feel for the car and track or truly test your physical ability to cope with the real world environment.

As to the original post... I can see how you might not have learned anything you considered valuable at a driving school, but to actually claim that sim racing and real racing are the same is laughable. The very fact that your brain is aware of what happens if you hit a wall for real (versus in a sim) alters the way you drive in each. The principles might be the same between real and virtual, but the physical differences between being in a car and experiencing the environment versus being in a chair looking at a screen make them completely disparate.

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Tah Tah For Now!
Scott Stockton

www.theuspits.com

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."  Phil 4:13

I'm not sure what I did to warrant such a hateful comment from someone, but let me put this in a different way.

This is how I see the two (games vs reality)



Some of you may see those circles farther apart or closer. This is just my impression of it. These circles are regarding just the actual driving of the car in a race. It isn't considering the teamwork and pit crews involved in SOME (most?) racing. The sport of racing does not necessarily have to involve pit crews, endurance racing, setting up your own car, racing in the rain, etc. So THAT is why I left all of those extra things out.

There was just nothing taught at SBRS that I didn't already figure out from years of playing video games. I've done the core 3 day school, the advanced 2 day school, car control course, and even started in 2 (you get two 30 lap races for 1 weekend) miata races. My thoughts? Wow, this is just like a computer game, only 100x scarier. Thats it. I mean I could wear a helmet and gloves and seatbelt and ask a friend to whack me with a baseball bat if I crash while playing a game. The biggest difference for me was the shifting. It required heal-toe and I was just terrible at it, especially since I never drove a manual transmission before. If you wanna call me an egghead for THAT, then go ahead. But I don't regret it. I drove the winged and wingless formula cars before with no problem despite not having any experience driving stick. The miata was a different animal. There was also the fear factor which was by far the biggest difference. Although my biggest fear was actually the damage liability cloud hanging over my head which the other (rich) competitors could just shake off like a dog after a rain shower. That was my introduction to the harsh reality of...reality.

Oh and another difference was that hitting the brake doesn't save you from a spin like it does in NR2003 and IRACING. That was a hard thing to get over, because when the car would start to slip away from me, my instinct was to hit the brake instead of counter-steering. As a result, I had a few uh-ohs, but never hit anything. And the cars didn't want to flip exiting the downhill at lime rock unlike in iracing.

Other than that, the car turned left when I turned the wheel left, and right when I turned it right. Did the car handle exactly like in a game? Heck no. How can you expect that. Even different GAMES and different CARS each handle differently. But its all the same general thing. I believe the same skills required to play a video game were the same skills required to be successful in that particular race. That and having experience with heal toe shifting. And being a bit brave would also help a lot. Skills not needed were communication (I didn't have to talk to a crewchief), mechanical knowledge, explaining how the car is handling (again, communication), endurance skills (it was only a 30 lap race). It wasn't hot, loud, or that uncomfortable. Actually I did find the tight seatbelts to be uncomfortable.

So ya, that was my honest assessment. Don't agree? Oh well, I can't change what I thought of it. If you go an do what I did (and I understand its ridiculously expensive), then you can tell me what you think.

What comment do you consider to be "hateful"?

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Tah Tah For Now!
Scott Stockton

www.theuspits.com

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."  Phil 4:13